Use of 'lequel'

[Boris Z]

Hi guys, i need help.  Dans la proposition:

J'ai rencontré Julien, le frère de Paul, lequel Julien a fait le tour du monde>>.

 

I want to know exactly what does this phrase means, because i'm thinking about ''I've met  Julien, the brother of Paul, with whom Julien traveled around the world'', but i am not sure? Is it correct?

 If it is or isn't I really want to know why ''lequel'' is here.   On whom is it refers to? On Paul, or Julian, than does we have two Juliens,  and if it is than why isn't ''avec lequel...''?

[Neil Coffey]

I think it's not clear what they mean: as you say, they could have left "avec" out, either "avec lequel..." or "lequel, avec Julien, a fait...". Either way, the person hasn't expressed themself very clearly.

 

Note that many French speakers do get into a muddle with words like "lequel", "dont". It's not uncommon to find in actual usage cases that are actually grammatical. (This also happens in English, of course: in actual usage, people say things like "my brother who, he's older than Jim".)

[Erwan]

It means that I met Julien, Paul's brother, and this Julien travelled around the world.

 

It's not very casual but it's correct. This kind of sentence is not very popular nowadays.  

 

 

[Neil Coffey]

Thank you, I hadn't thought of that! I guess the author is just being deliberately ironic, though, in using that construction. (I guess it's roughly the equivalent of saying in English something like: "... and said Julien travelled the world".)

[Erwan]

In this kind of construction, there is not necessarilysome irony. It just a way to give an additional information.

e.g. J'ai rencontré les voisins, lesquels te disent bonjour. I met the neighbours and they say you hello.

 

In the sentenceb J'ai rencontré Julien, le frère de Paul, lequel Julien a fait le tour du monde the speaker is obliged to add Julien behind lequel because it might have a confusion between Paul and Julien. Without it the sentence is always correct but it's hard to know who travelled.

[Neil Coffey]

As far as I'm aware, though-- and this is what I was getting at-- it's rarer to use "lequel" as a determiner (the "lequel Julien", "lequel président" etc) than to use it as in your first example where it's effectively equivalent to "qui" (though of course it is still more formal and less common than using "qui"). In other words, for example, I think "lesquels te disent bonjour"  would be more common than "lesquels voisins te disent bonjour". Does that seem a reasonable assessment, do you think?

 

[Erwan]

You're right it's rarer. Lequel, used as a derterminer, is only employed (I think) when there could be a doubt on the subject or "to emphasized the message" (Nous avons rencontré le président de la société X, lequel président a fait savoir... ).

In the exemple with Julien it's possible to replace lequel Julien by qui :

J'ai rencontré Julien, le frère de Paul, qui a fait le tour du monde.

The comma behind Paul is very important. Without it it's Paul tre traveller.

 

[Boris Z]

Well i am quite clear with J'ai rencontré Julien, le frère de Paul, qui a fait le tour du monde.  And , le frère de Paul, is obvious apposition in function of epithet for Julien. When i spotted lequel, it seems strange to me, because i didn't notice that kind of use for lequel because Julien is repeated , i know general use like Erwan had wrote : J'ai rencontré les voisins, lesquels te disent bonjour.  Later i've realized that lequel it must refers to Julien. I thought it is something like ,that Julien who traveled the world. But i wasn't sure.
I've found that on some internet grammar site in case of lequel non précédé d'une préposition.   And it's said that Son emploi est une marque du registre soutenu. So i was expecting that is unusual in everyday language.

I had exam this morning so i was not quite sure with that case and you never know what will get you there. :)

Thank you guys very much. I'm new here and i can say this is a very good forum. Especially for people like me, who often need some professional help. :)

[Neil Coffey]

Yes -- what Erwan and I are agreeing on, I think, is that "lequel" when not preceded by a preposition is unusual in everyday usage, AND additionally, this particular case of using lequel as a determiner to mean "said/the aforementioned..." is even rarer still.

 

There's one case that does spring to mind where a similar usage of "lequel" is more or less common: in the phrase "auquel cas" = "in which case, in the aforementioned case".