"Des" as a pronoun?

[Curt Jugg]

I am having trouble with the word "des" in this sentence: "On n'en fait plus des comme ça", meaning "They don't make them like that any more". I have only come across the word before as a determiner but it seems to be being used here as a pronoun (meaning "things" or something like that?).

Grateful for any help.

[George Hunt]

"des comme ça" I would understand as to mean "of things like that" where "comme ça" is used like an adjective  meaning "similar to ...."

"On n'en fait plus..." means they make no more of them"

Put them together and you get "they  make no more of things   like that...."

I s that a help? 

[Curt Jugg]

Yes, George, it is a help, thank you. You seem to be confirming what I thought it meant. I have several French grammars and they don't seem to deal with this use of "des" as a pronoun (I think).

[George Hunt]

No I wouldn't call it a pronoun.

Here is another example "certains des policiers sont corrompus..."="some of the police are corrupt "

"certains d'entr'eux ne le sont pas" ="some of them are not"

"certains des plus jeunes  sont plus corrompus que les plus anciens " = "some of the younger ones are more corrupt than the older ones"

I always think  "des" as being short for "de les" (which you cannot say)  although I think it can be used in other ways(eg simply to mean "some" followed by a noun in the plural).

[Curt Jugg]

Interesting. "Des" can mean "de" (preposition)+"les" (definite article). Or it can mean"some" followed by a noun (ie plural indefinite article), as you say. But when it's followed by "comme ça", what is it if not a pronoun, I wonder?

[George Hunt]

Oh I see what you mean .You would like "comme ça" to be a pronoun? (not "des")

I look upon it ("des comme ça") as being short for "des choses comme ça"

That is just how I think of it  and I can't see any pronouns..... 

As long as it works for you is probably all that matters........

[Curt Jugg]

No, just to clarify, it is "des" that I take to be a pronoun, not "comme ça". Your "des choses comme ça" would be a noun phrase for which "des" stands,making "des" a pronoun.

[Curt Jugg]

Sorry, that last sentence should read: Your "des choses" would be a noun phrase for which "des" stands, making "des" a pronoun.

[George Hunt]

Well if that is how you see it OK .

I still don't think I would call it a pronoun  but I don't think that is  an important issue. 

(you seem to be saying that "des"  substitutes for "des choses" in my interpretation : but "des" is  a part of  the "des choses" phrase  and  surely would need to be separate for the idea of it being a pronoun to work? )

I am not particularly good at grammar l but there is a Wikipedia page on pronouns and I cannot see an example of pronoun usage that looks like what you are  suggesting.  

If the original sentence was 

""On n'en fait plus d'eux (or d'elles)  comme ça" then "eux" or "elles"  would ,I think be a pronoun.

However  the  the phrase "comme ça" would  not be attached to "d'eux" in the same way as "des comme ça" seems to hang together.

[Curt Jugg]

OK, George. As you say, it's not an important issue.

[Sandra]

Hi all,

I will join George explanation. "Des" in this case is not used as a pronoun but as a determinant.  However this sentence is a "frozen" expression, like a proverb, used in familiar speech and very (very very) compressed which may confuse you:

I think it's because the noun which "des" is supposed to be associated is missing that you got confused.

For me, in this case, "des" is still a determinant, it's just the noun who disappeared in the compression.

If I develop the sentence to go back from the familiar form to the formal correct one you will see that "des" always has the same determinant role:

"On n'en fait plus des comme ça"

"On n'en fait plus des [something] comme ça"

"Nous ne [fabriquons/ faisons]  plus des [something] comme ça"

"Nous ne [fabriquons/ faisons] plus des [something] comme [celle ci/ celui ci] "

"On n'en fait plus des comme ça" is a pre-made expression which mean we use it in every context as it is without any modification according to grammar or gender or anything...

For example if you are saying that your grand-mother is a wonderful woman far better than the new generation you may use "on n'en fait plus des comme ça"

Hope I was clear :)

[Curt Jugg]

So it's still a determinant, then. Thanks, Sandra.