Direct/Indirect Objects

[Al Graham]

Bonjour tout le monde,

Nous lui voulons le lire We want him to read it.

Nous voulons le lui lire We want to read it to him.

I'm finding the placement of the pronouns in these sentences confusing. I think the underlying problem is that when there are two verbs in a sentence, I have trouble identifying direct vs indirect objects and consequently which type of pronoun to use and where it should be placed.

Can anyone explain the direct/indirect relationships in these sentences? Any tips on how to identify direct/indirect objects when two verbs are used?

Thanks,
Al

[Neil Coffey]

I think there are a few issues here that your question confuses. Here are some general observations-- maybe you can refine your question according to which specific points you're having trouble with:

- generally, the object pronouns are attached to the verb that they logically belong to (imagine splitting the sentence up if that helps you determine what logically belongs with what-- e.g. imagine saying "what I want is [to read it to him]", and you see that "to read it to him" is a unit in its own right

- if both verbs have an object, in general they can go in their relevant places, e.g. Je l'ai vue le manger = I saw her eat(ing) it; Je l'ai fait passer la voir = I made him/her go and see her

- however, French has a complication that certain types of verb (generally a class of verb called "causative" verbs) allow the infinitive to be interpreted as a passive -- e.g. J'ai entendu chanter une chanson (the song is being sung), J'ai vu manger le gâteau (the cake is being eaten)

- in these cases where the infinitive is passive, you can end up with a word order that looks a bit odd to English speakers: e.g. J'ai vu manger le gâteau (à Jean) ("I saw the cake being eaten (by Jean)") becomes Je l'ai vu manger/Je le lui ai vu manger ("I saw it being eaten (by him)", "I saw him eating it")

- in careful speech at least, speakers make a distinction between e.g. Je les ferai parler ("I'll make them talk") and Je leur ferai parler un anglais correct ("I'll make them speak correct English") -- the logic is that "faire" and "parler" share the same objects, so if you have a clear-cut direct object ("un anglais correct"), then "they" can't also be the direct object; probably most speakers would go for Je les ferai parler anglais (and not treat "anglais" as a direct object), though the jury is out on this one

- with modal verbs (vouloir, pouvoir, devoir), the pronoun can also "climb" over the modal in slightly old-fashioned usage: so instead Je veux le lire, you can say Je le veux lire-- as I say, though, this is essentially a literary/old-fashioned construction in French

- the above explains the logic behind Nous lui voulons le lire-- although in reality, the usual French way of expressing this would be Nous voulons qu'il le lise

However, I would say: don't get too daunted/paranoid by all of this. As a starting point, try and put the pronouns in the place where you logically think they belong.

[Al Graham]

Thanks Neil. As I said, I think some of my problem is that I have trouble identifying verb objects in complex sentences, even in English, so will have to work on that.

I'm saving your comments for reference. As you suggest, for now I'm going to concentrate on the 'don't get paranoid' part and just go with what seems reasonable. Hopefully, a better understanding will emerge as I go on.

Regards,
Al