What's your bête noire of French grammar?

[Neil Coffey]

Dear all,

I'm looking to expand the site's French grammar section so am looking for suggestions of new topics to include. So in a nutshell my question is:

What are the things that you find difficult/confusing about French?!

[Cindy W]

I think for most people learning French the most difficult or confusing part is the real french of everyday because if you go to france and listen how people speak its not text book french most french people use a LOT or slang or Argot and younger people use even more of it they incorporate even english based words that have a different meaning in english and when they use them in french they mean something totally different example : Tiens, voilà un gamin avec un slim et des vêtements du style American Apparel or c’est trop stylé etc....

this is very confusing for someone who has learned text book french most french people when talking amongst speak fast and use slang or even curse words its part of their language and culture and when using the curse words they use them as everyday words and they are not viewed as insulting the italians are the same way .

Just rent a new release french movie and listen how they speak its very colorful and can be very confusing as to what they are saying.
To me thats the most difficult part of the language.

Cindy

[stu harris]

Many people would like some guidance on "tu" and "vous" -- something we have absolutely no experience of in English. I'm not native French but I think:

People who are automatically "tu":
Close family
Close friends
School or college friends, whether or not you know them well
Kids
These days, anyone in internet chat because you assume you don't owe them respect

People who are automatically "vous":
Old people
Anyone you have a purely commercial relationship with -- shopkeepers, waiters etc.
Anyone to whom you owe respect

People who could go either way:
Work colleagues
People of your own age who you meet informally

The biggest trap is in choosing the moment when a "vous" becomes a "tu". Advice from a native speaker would be welcome here. It can be seen as a Faux pas. Is it ever OK with a waiter or barman who serves you regularly? How about someone of your own age who you have a casual conversation with at a bar?

I noticed something clever in the english sub-titling of the Klapisch film "Paris". The professeur begins an affair with one of his students (a really gorgeous woman, by the way.) Eventually she says "I love you" but she can't get out of the habit of vous-ing him. He replies "Bon, mais dans ce cas tu peus me tutoyer". Literally, this is "Fine, but in that case you can call me tu." The translator came up with something clever -- "Fine, but in that case you can stop calling me Sir."

Another thing I'd like to know from a native is -- is "Je vous aime" ever really logical?

[Frank]

Hi Stu,

This is a very interesting question and your list is quite accurate.

Think about how you would greet the person you are talking to. If saying "what's up" would be ok, you can probably go for "tu". If a more formal greeting would be more suitable, "vous" would be a safer pick.

Is it ever OK with a waiter or barman who serves you regularly?

Depends. If other clients might hear your conversation, maybe not, because other clients could consider you as a privileged client, thus feeling uncomfortable. If not, and especially in a bar, if you are a regular client, it might be ok. But as a rule of thumb, you should avoid "tu" with someone you are a client of, when he's on the clock.

How about someone of your own age who you have a casual conversation with at a bar?

Start with "vous" and shift to "tu" after the first beer or after a few jokes :)

At the workplace, at school, etc. it all depends on the local informal pre-established rules. In some companies, coworkers always use "vous", except when they are very close colleagues. In other companies, "tu" is the rule, no matter who you are talking to. In the company I'm currently working for, I always say "tu", even to the boss and to people I have never met before.

If you're not sure about which one to use, use "vous" and eventually the person you are talking to is going to say "hé, on peut se tutoyer".

When talking to kids, "tu" is the rule. But at school, usually starting at the secondary school, teachers use "vous" when talking to pupils.

Some people used to say "vous" to their relatives, especially to their parents and grandparents. But this is a very uncommon thing nowadays.

"Je vous aime" is a juicy mix of going intimate and being distant at the same time. This is something you will only hear in movies, not in the real life.

[Erin Wiedmer]

I heard someone 'vous-voyer'ing (is that how you spell it?) her dog in Paris....LOL! I've also heard a diplomat doing the same to his wife. It gets a bit silly. My husband has worked in his firm for 10 yrs and reports that some of his collegues have not passed to the tutoyer stage amongst themselves - and there are only 12 of them!One of my biggest problems is that I have trouble remembering to whom I say "tu" and to whom I say "vous". I find I get a lot of lenience though, but it does shock apparently when one has passed to the "tutoyer" stage to use the formal vous again! Oops!

[stu harris]

I just remembered (maybe accurately, maybe not) that the line "Je vous aime" features in another renowned French film from 1966 -- Un Homme et Une Femme. Unless I'm remembering wrong, it's what Anne writes to Jean-Louis in the telegram, which has him driving all night from Monte-Carlo back to Paris to be with her. Quite romantic -- but I'm still puzzled by the apparent conflict between the intimacy of the message and the formality of the language.

[Tobias Brown]

Finding very basic text to practice reading with, and I've tried various types of books, newspapers, and websites.

One example: Le journal en français facile

I find that sometimes I can read an entire paragraph from these resources but in general they require lots of dictionary work and this takes lots of time.

Is there text available where the writer begins with basic, simple, clear English text and translates it into French with English readers in mind, so it's easier to comprehend and we can more easily learn the flow of reading French texts?

Another big factor is one's level of interest in the text. I'm more motivated to try when I'm inherently interested in knowing what the text means.

[adel]

Hi Tobias takes lots of time to understand a foreign language, hence no choice but to use dictionaries, in my case I use two dictionaries, one in my bedroom and another to carry around in my place. Very rewarding when one works hard. Good luck

[Stephen Lawson]

For me there is still a lot of fog around "faire + infinitive" constructions.

[Anna Roscello]

Although this is not an issue to me anymore, I remember the whole "ce qui/ce que" thing was VERY confusing to my entire French class--myself included. It took me a while to learn proper usage of it. My teacher was a native Parisienne, and while she had otherwise been an outstanding teacher and her being native French helped us tremendously, she nevertheless was quite flummoxed when trying to impart to us when to use "ce que" versus just "que". Her rule of thumb was that "ce que" meant "that which", but then she found plenty of examples where "that which" didn't apply, but "ce que" was nevertheless used...and she couldn't explain it.

I approached an American French teacher about the problem, and she said that when she studied French, usage of ce qui/ce que vexed her as well. She gave a great explanation for how and when to use them, but damned if I can remember what that rule is. Her rule helped me to understand fully how to use these words, such that I never had to think about HOW to use them ever again, so I've forgotten the rule and just simply "think" that way naturally now. Her explanation was THAT good. Wish you could remind me just what the rule is on how to use these.

[Mathew Ryan]

Could you please discuss the Subjunctive? Thanks.

[Neil Coffey]

As a starting point, maybe have a look at the site's grammar section on the subjunctive, then post questions here about anything that you're not sure about. The thing is that the subjunctive is quite a broad area, so it's probably worth trying to hone in a little on what aspects cause you difficulty.

[Erin Wiedmer]

Hi. I hate trying to figure out whether the french mean something is good or bad when they say things like, "Ce n'etait pas terrible". It drives me crazy the way things get twisted around!!! Erin