fee

[alan gould]

i have the sentence below: 

Les honoraires de l'avocat peuvent se chiffrer à des milliers de dollars.

in English attorneys charge legal fees.  honorarium is used for clergy who perform a service.  they don't charge, but u're supposed to give them an appropriate payment.  

is honoraires reserved for attorneys?  i know the word "taux" for rate.  what is the normal word for "fee?"  a plumber charges a "fee" and speaks of his fee/rate or fees/rates (they might vary if he comes late at night)

[Chantal Savignat]

I think the best name for fee is "tarif".

In France, professions are sectorised.

there are some professions called "professions libérales" : avocat, médecins, dentistes, géomètre, huissier, notaire, commissaire priseur, .... a lot of professions in law system, in medical system, and some exceptionnal professions. To do these professions, there is always a  "concours" (difficult competitive examination)  in the beginning of studies and these professions are regulated, fee are regulated.

this system is difficult to explain to a foreigner. A friend of mine used to host américan youngs at home, and they are always surprised by the system.

In France, there are a table list with each fee for medical doctor : example (with the real prices) "généraliste" = 25 euros, spécialiste = "30 euros", if you have to go for an health check, (généraliste) you know before, it's 25 euros. If the doctor says you have to do eyes tests, you have to go for an ophtalmo test (spécialiste) and this will cost 30 euros. Some médical doctors are allowed to have a higher fee, but they are regulated too. (but we have the same  proportion reimbursed after . If I pay 25 euros or 40 euros for a generalist, the reimbursment is = 25 euros)

The name for what I have to pay for a professional in one "profession libérale" and for what the professional earn is "honoraires". and the cost (25 euros, 30 euros, .... ) is called  "tarif".

A plumber is not in "professions libérales". it's an "artisan".If I call a plumber, and I want to know how may his work will cost for me I ask "quel sera le tarif pour l'intervention ?" ou "quel sera le prix ?" ou "vous m'envoyez un devis" (devis = a paper with all détails of the work and the price for each work)

and he earns "un salaire" or "une rémunération".

[alan gould]

in english i wouldn't call a plumber an artisan but maybe it's ok.  i would call him a tradesman -- he had to learn a trade (a skill).  the dictionary said artisans usually work w their hands to make something that they specialize in.  a piano tuner might qualify as an artisan even tho he's not making something.  u also have artisanal makers of food -- they strive for a higher quality and use better material.  the word also applies to the process -- artisanal cheese, artisanal bread, etc.    

u call a plumber to ask his fee or price or what he charges.  and he presents u w a bill or an itemized bill if it details what he did and involves a few things.  

[Chantal Savignat]

In France "artisan" works "with theirs hands", without any idea of making something special. An artisan works for himself, has a professional school certificate, manages himself his work and has a special registration number.

So the plumber may be an artisan and a piano tuner too and some butchers or bakers ...  

I thought the bill is after the work, where he details what he did.

Le "devis"  is before the work. In France, if I want to change my kitchen sink, I call many plumbers, (one or 10 if I want) I describe the job and I ask for the price. The plumber comes home and see what he has to do, and he makes "un devis" = the price I will pay at the end of the job.  Then I choose and accept one "devis" and the plumber I choose comes home and does the job, and I pay exactly what was on the "devis" except if I change something, so he could change the price.  Then the job ended I pay and I receive a bill with the details of what he did.

[alan gould]

i had to ask my sister for help on this one.  she's had work done on her house so i thought maybe she'd have some ideas.  she said the workman (dictionary defines it as someone who works w his hands in construction or building renovation) gives an "estimate," a "proposal" or a "contract proposal."  

she said an artisan "is a highly skilled crafts person who creates something that is mostly handmade. A carpenter may or may not be an artisan. A cabinet maker or furniture maker probably is. A plumber definitely is not. A tailor would not be unless making sophisticated from scratch clothing, including making the patterns." 

in the US, u don't hear people use the word.  i never do.  i read a lot of history, esp. labor history so u come across "artisans" in history books.  and as i said, u hear about artisanal food.  but that's it.  so it seems the french use it more. 

u wrote: the plumber comes home and see what he has to do. 

better: the plumber comes or goes TO THE HOME and SEES (need s)...

"when the job ended"

better "when the job is finished or comes to an end or is complete, or is over  

[alan gould]

n France "artisan" works "with theirs hands", without any idea of making something special. An artisan works for himself, has a professional school certificate, manages himself his work and has a special registration number.

So the plumber may be an artisan and a piano tuner too and some butchers or bakers ...  

corrections: in france, "artisans (need s) work (no s) or "an artisan (singular) works 

"w/o any idea of"

better "w  no notion of specializing.  

"manages himself his work"

me: "manages his work" is enough or u could say "manages his work himself" but i think it's clear from the verb manage and the use of "his work" that he's self-employed and there's no need for "himself"  

[alan gould]

there are probably piano tuners who do woodwork and fashion their own parts in the course of their work.  in such case, they'd b artisans.  but a butcher is most definitely note an artisan.