Different meanings of 'leur'

[Al Graham]

I understand 'leur' can mean either 'their' or 'them', depending on context, so I've tried to construct a sentence using both meanings:

J'ai dit leur père attendre pour leur ici.

I intend to say: 'I told their father to wait for them here.' Is my sentence correct?

Thanks for your help.

Al

[Frank]

Hi Al,

"leur" means "their" or "to them".

The first part of your sentence should be J'ai dit à leur père (think about it with "say" instead of "tell": "I said to their father").

To wait for sth/sb is "attendre" + direct object or "attendre de" + verb at the infinitive form. And when the object is a pronoun, it should be placed before the verb. And "leur" isn't a valid pronoun to use as a direct object. As a direct object, the right pronoun to use here is "les" (singular would be "la", "le" or "l'").

J'ai dit à leur père de les attendre ici.

Granted, this is tricky :)

[Neil Coffey]

Yes, depending on the context, there are three words with the form leur in French.

(1) meaning of their, as in leur livre = their book; note that in the plural, an -s is added: leurs livres = their books
(2) meaning of (to) them, as in je leur ai donné un livre = I gave them a book; je leur ai dit que... = I told them that..., I said to them that...; in this case, the form is always leur, with no possibility of adding an -s
(3) when used with le/la, les, the meaning is "theirs", "their one", "the one belongong to them": je ne comprends pas ton livre, mais je comprends le leur = I don't understand your book, but I understand theirs; in this case, you can also pluralise: les leurs = theirs, the ones belonging to them

[Neil Coffey]

I should probably add that in everday speech, there are other (arguably more common) ways of expressing the notion of le/la leur, les leurs. For example, another possibility might be: Je ne comprends pas ton livre à toi, mais je comprends leur livre à eux. Written down it looks a bit overkill, but in everyday speech this is how it might come out.

[Frank]

While "ton livre à toi ... leur livre à eux" might come out, it really sounds uneducated (even like a low-life, depending on the tone of voice).

[Al Graham]

Thanks Frank and Neil--this is quite interesting.

Frank, in your first example J'ai dit à leur père de les attendre ici., I'm confused about why 'de' is included. You mention the form is 'attendre' + object, or 'attendre de' + verb. This sentence seems to use 'attendre' + object pronoun ('les'), so how does 'de' come in? Also, if 'attendre de' is the appropriate form, how does 'de' wind up preceding the verb and object pronoun? (I hope this is soemwhat comprehensible to you :)

Neil, thanks for the notes on 'leur'. I'm still trying to come up with a sentence which uses 'leur' meaning 'there' and 'them'. (it's an obsession...) Would 'Leur père achète des livres pour leur' (Their father buys books for them) work?

Thanks for your patience!

Al

[Neil Coffey]

Al --

French and related languages have a special class of words, technically called clitics (clitiques in French), that are used for pronouns that are the object of the verb. Clitics have special properties, notably that they are generally placed before the verb they depend on (with some exceptions and variation among French, Spanish, Italian etc). So to say to wait-for them, this actually becomes les attendre (and never attendre les) in French[*].

In general, clitics are always attached to the verb they belong to-- i.e. no other word can come between a clitic and the verb. So this is essentially why you see the order de les attendre. (In fact, there are still other things that can come between de and the verb, e.g. tell him to do nothing = dis-lui de ne rien faire.)

The reason for the de to some extent is that it's there "just because it is". When two verbs are combined, depending on the type of the first verb, the second verb may be introduced by à or de. If you look up dire in a dictionary, it will generally mention the construction dire à qn de faire qch = to tell sb to do sth. In general, where the first verb indicates the vague notion of "commanding", de introduces the second verb. So you'll see this pattern with other verbs, e.g. je lui conseille de venir = I advise him to come.

[*] Exceptions include the positive imperative, where standard forms have the clitic after the verb, e.g. attends-les! = wait for them!.

[Al Graham]

Thanks Neil.

And with regard to my second run at a sentence using 'leur' with two different meanings, does

'Leur père achète des livres pour leur' (Their father buys books for them) work?

Al

[Neil Coffey]

Not quite-- leur goes before the verb as mentioned (you don't need the pour in this case: leur is enough to translate "for them"). So the sentence becomes: leur père leur achète des livres.

You could use pour ..., and in fact the form would be pour eux (masculine) or pour elles (feminine). But it would be a little emphatic (like saying "for them and not for anybody else").

[Al Graham]

Thanks Neil--my obsession is finally satisfied!

Al