An Idiom (I think)

[Jeff Morrow]

I have some text that I want to translate as accurately as possible from French to English, and I have run across a verbal form that I do not believe I have ever seen before "arriver dans." (Oh, it is 18th century French so it may not be a current form.) Here is the whole sentence

Sous l’un et l’autre de ces points de vue, il est encore intéressé à ce qu’il n’arrive pas dans la valeur des denrées de ces secousses subites qui, en plongeant le peuple dans les horreurs de la disette, peuvent troubler la tranquillité publique et la sécurité des citoyens et des magistrats.

I think the sense of the clause in bold type is "that no shock happen in the value of food so sudden that," but I have never seen this form before. (I should say I took my last class in French in 1964 so my French is very, very rusty.)

[George Hunt]

  Well I am trying to make sense of it myself.. I think I might be tempted to translate "arrive dans ...." here as

" the value of foodstuffs are affected by  sudden shocks" although "arriver dans" might  be literally " enter into" or something like that.

Also I haven't really come across this  "de ces secousses subites.." usage before- I think it may be  a way of saying "de telles  secousses"  or "une de ces soucousses.."but I would be guessing.

[Jeff Morrow]

Thanks for the reply. I need help, that is for sure. Notice as well that we are dealing with a negative verb. I did not think I had trouble with "subites."

I translated that as "those sudden disturbances in the value of foodstuffs that, by plunging ..., may disturb ...."

Thinking about it that way, perhaps this is just an odd word order to get the relative pronoun "qui" adjacent to its referent of "secousses subites." In other words, it is not "n'arrive pas dans" that is to be read as a unit but rather "n'arrive pas des" that is to be read as a unit. 

I should say that this was not taken from something that was meant to be published (although it was). So it may be rather careless usage.

[George Hunt]

Well I was taking "subites" to mean "sudden" -the same as you. It was the stand alone"de ces secousses " that I was unfamiliar with.

I have come across "une de ces secousses " but not "de ces secousses" and so I feel it may be an idiom that is close in meaning to "de telles secoussses..."

As a whole this is how I see the structure of the sentence.

il est encore intéressé à ce qu’il n’arrive pas de ces secousses subites qui peuvent troubler la tranquillité publique .

which breaks down to

il est encore intéressé à ce qu’il n’arrive pas de telles secousses subites qui peuvent troubler la tranquillité publique.

Now I could well, be wrong but that is how I try to make sense of it.

Unless "de ces" is just meant to be read as "des" (an error?)

[Vedas]

Hello,

Hello,

not really an idiom:

I 've found a version with commas that might help you to better understand the meaning of this text:

il est encore intéressé à ce qu'il n'arrive pas, dans la valeur des denrées, de ces secousses subites,....

In both respects, the State has a special interest in protecting the value of the necessities of life from those sudden shocks which, by plunging the people into the horrors of famine, may endanger public tranquility and the safety of citizens and magistrates.

[Jeff Morrow]

Thank you very much. I agree with you that the meaning seems to be what you say. In fact, if you look at my first post in this thread I came up with a somewhat similar meaning. My problem is in being sure that I have not missed some nuance that is intended by what seems to me very unusual wording. It would have been so much more straight forward to use a positive form of "proteger" than a negative form of "arriver."

[Vedas]

well qui n'arrive pas could also be translated by don't occur in..

 

what might shock an English speaker is perhaps the idea that les denrées be an animate notion? and that things may occur in them...

[Jeff Morrow]

Thanks again. Yes, it is a little mentally perturbing to me to think of even metaphorically animate foodstuffs, but not perturbing to view values, prices, as being metaphorically animate. That fits the context well. So the subject of "n'arrive pas" is really a purely grammatical subject as in " il y a," and a more idiomatic English translation that stays very close to the French original might be

"... it is especially interested that there not occur in the value of foodstuffs those sudden shocks that, by ..."

Thank you again. At one time, I could read French rapidly, but it is now a real struggle.

[Vedas]

yes absolutely!

mind you, as you said it was written in the 18th century...

I had to read it several times myself to get it right...

[Jeff Morrow]

Merci beaucoup a vous et M. Hunt 

[Robert]

Can 'des' be in place of 'de ces' ?

[Vedas]

yes but we'd lose something: des chocs would mean any kind of shocks

now we're talking about specific shocks: 

the kind of shocks that are sudden and  can ....

[Robert]

Ok, so Ces is needed. And yet those specific and real shocks are still the ones that happened somewhere else, in the memory of the author. The current context is still subjunctive. Is that about right?